2005-08-08 [Fizban]: lols...yes you can call and delete your comment right now!! as soon as your done reading mine..then when you delete yours i will delete mine okay!!...yucky...cant say that here...

2005-08-08 [Gypsi]: [skizheart], I don't think you see my point. NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES IN YOUR GOD. Some people don't believe in any god. Quite frankly, I would be very angry if I lived in a theocracy. And trust me, I live in a small community that strives to be as religiously perfect as possible. It doesn't work. There's still greed, hate, selfishness, etc. They break the "Ten Commandments" just as much as any one else, they just keep it hush-hush.

2005-08-08 [skizheart]: ...well..i'm just saying if there were ppl that were willing and stuff...and weren't really bad people..then you know it would work.....so to live in the real world..i know it's crap lol.....but it could work..... just not probable to last or anything...so anyways i think that a mix of democracy and communism could work :)

2005-08-08 [Fizban]: scarred witch irrelevent of her god, any god, or almost any religoun...islamic 5 pillars of faith ten comandamants, whatever jewish people have, its irrelevent just that one would be there...shes not saying a theocracy is better, she is saying that if everyone had some doctine of faith or morals to guide them with thats perfect...a theocracy isnt cause people then dont do it, but just to have people be better people...wich is why she knows its not possible..because thats depending on people to be better than its in there nature to be able to be...also going along with the communism thing...some would do there part, but i personally would despise communism...its a nice idea, but...

2005-08-08 [skizheart]: ...that just means that you would want more...that's all...that's just you...but i am definatly fine seeing everyone as an equal....meaning that i am a dishwasher...and i get the same pay as the damn cook...cuz you can't have the food with out the cook and you need to have clean dishes to eat off......so i believe that they're both equaly neede in the situation...so they should get the same pay ...

2005-08-09 [Fizban]: in the situation,...but i mean what about jobs that arent equal...will i want to do a whole lot of work to be a doctor when i can just as easily become a dishwasher for the same pay??

2005-08-09 [skizheart]: ...um...excuse me...i believe a dishwasher has a shit job...don't you...ehem...another example...my dad...a CNA ...certified nurse assistant...one of the lower jobs...cleans old ppl's ass for a living...you think he doensn't deserve as much money as a doctor...who has more freedom...i think the person doing shit for work and taking the same amount of stress as a doctor should most definatly be paid the same...let alone treated the same

2005-08-09 [fallen_flutterby]: but think about it this way the doctor went to collage for 8 years....thats alot of money and time, your dad probably didn't spend 8 years of his life devoted to collage its kinda like pay back. and doctors who are just starting to work don't make that much money as it is...it takes years of hard work to make the kinda money your thinking about..

2005-08-09 [skizheart]: i know that...but that's just because the doctor wanted to be a doctor.....it's not like the CNA wanted to be a CNA....not everyone wants to be a doctor and not everyone doesn't want to be a CNA ...so they're equal...either way if they are happy with their jobs...then what's the matter..they're equal...

2005-08-10 [fallen_flutterby]: yes they are equals as humans but their choices are what seperates us ...

2005-08-10 [Fizban]: PAY BACK!!...i am sorry there is a big difference here, yeah, pay back because they didnt have enough money to go to college...that must be it, that sounds like economic spite...i am simply saying amber, that althou i wholeheartedly agree your father has harder work that no one else likes, and i think he should get payed more, the thing is, doctors are more rare because its harder to become them...its like supply and demand...sense there are more people that can do your fathers job than can do some doctors job, the doctor is essential more important, not because his job is bigger or better, because the doctors would be useless without the CNA's but because he is harder to replace so doctors

2005-08-10 [Fizban]: are payed more...

2005-08-10 [fallen_flutterby]: you can be poor and go to collage if you work hard and get scholorships then anyone can go to collage....like i said its your choices in life that set you apart.......its all about choices.....every country makes a choice to declare what type of goverment it has everybody makes a choices.....[skizheart]s dad could have made the choice to be a doctor but he didn't , and i don't mean that offencively..

2005-08-10 [Fizban]: it just sounded alot like it was offesive...and even still its not always that easy...war often gets in the way of plans...and its all irrelevent, thats not the point were getting at...her father doesnt want to be a doctor, or a cna...hard work is often, but not always rewarded, i am saying that althou even if everything is possible, wich i dont believe but we will jsut go with that anyway, that doesnt mean everyone knows it...

2005-08-10 [fallen_flutterby]: well im sorry for my wording of that..and weather or not her dad wanted to be a CNA, who i know work hard and should be respected is irrelavent.....we are talking about the government...and what we want from a government.... 

2005-08-10 [Fizban]: govt? i thought we were talking about communism?? i mean right here specifically

2005-08-10 [Dil*]: uhm, you're talking about govt right?? (that's the topic..?)

2005-08-10 [fallen_flutterby]: thats the topic so we should talk about it.

2005-08-10 [skizheart]: yea we're talking about government...and then i went and said taht economics are like one of the keys to a government...and i said i would like a government withcommunism...although i believe you should work for what money you get...our jobs are equally needed and stuff so i like communism...compared to capitalism or anything....so anyways...i know it only works for certain people...and in a relatively small atmosphere...but i would like that in a government

2005-08-10 [Fizban]: umm...to clear any confusion, communism isnt a type of government...its an economic system...she's saying that instead of the ususaly totalitarian gov't combined with communism, have democracy and communism...

2005-08-10 [skizheart]: thank you yes lol

2005-08-10 [Fizban]: i gotcha covered lols...;)

2005-08-10 [Dil*]: democratic communism...but communism is usually a radical movement which they just overthrow the govt.

2005-08-10 [Fizban]: what? i dunno about you, but i dont see an overthrown vietnam, cuba or china...

2005-08-10 [Dil*]: hmm, how about russia? There was a civil war in China after WW2 and the commies siezed power >.>

2005-08-10 [Fizban]: i am well aware of that, all those that disagreed where forced onto the neighboring island...lucky them they got a choice...civil wars then continue if you bring them up, because vietnam and korea also fought with themselves over it...i thought you were saying that becoming communisitic causes civil wars..wich no it doesnt no communistic contrie has had a civil war that i am aware of...they only became communistic through war...that all except for cuba...

2005-08-10 [Dil*]: Spain had a civil war, the communist govt was overthrown by the fascists.

2005-08-10 [Dil*]: Err, what I'm trying to get at is: most communists believe people need to be forced into communism because of human nature. ie: marxist-lennonists. sp?

2005-08-12 [skizheart]: umm...communism....lol is an economic system....it doesn't need to be forced on anyone...i don't know what you guys are talking about...i'm saying..you have a bunch of people...in a government right? ...they're representatives of who the people voted for...ok?....then you have the economic system...someone has to make up.....so then you got communism...without a totalitarian ruler...you have the government going and making laws that the people want...and then the people are working for money that they earn...everyone has a job and everything is provided for them....however i don' think that someone that just sits on the couch all day is going to get money.

2005-08-12 [skizheart]: so that person sittin there can move and be lazy somewhere else...other than that everyone will be provided for and will have time...for things like family...and taking care of their damn grandparents unlike Americans putting them in nursing homes!....because you can get home at a reasonable hour...and it all works out...and if there are people who don't like communism there...then they can leave...

2005-08-12 [skizheart]: but yeah...communism also would only work with a small group/atmosphere

2005-08-14 [Dil*]: Isnt a large part of communism about making all the wages the same???

2005-08-15 [Roc]: Point of clarification: Communism is a form of government where all manufacturing and business is under the hand of the government...also known as Marxism. Socialism is the economic form where all wages are the same.

2005-08-15 [Dil*]: ah, it appears I got them mixed together.

2005-08-15 [skizheart]: ...but communism...is where the people share the wealth...and all the busnesses are owned by the government...and socialism is just when there's some privately owned businesses, and some owned by the government...

2005-08-16 [Roc]: End Forms of Government Debate

2005-08-16 [Roc]: ................................................................................................................

2005-08-16 [Roc]: Begin N.A.M.B.L.A. Debate; brief description above.

2005-08-16 [Fizban]: UMM..WOW never thought we woudl be discussing this topic...this too i hope will be a one sided debate...

2005-08-16 [Roc]: I'm hoping not, actually.

2005-08-16 [Fizban]: well for the sake of a good debate yeah...but umm, i seriusly wouldnt want to know who here agress with nambla...

2005-08-16 [Gypsi]: Well, I completely disagree with them. Personally, I don't believe most minors know quite what they're getting into when it comes to sexual relations, especially with people several years older than themselves.

2005-08-17 [Fizban]: several minors can even become selfabusive due to feelings of inadiquacy...and no, if your not old enough to buy ciaggarettes, or join the army or vote or soemthing, then how can you be old enough to understand sex??

2005-08-17 [Gypsi]: I think there may be a few exceptions to that, but they are few and far between, and are probably smart enough to wait anyway.

2005-08-17 [arafel]: yea this topic is very rough to debate with. I dont think anyone will support the group. I'm against it too.

2005-08-17 [Dil*]: against. That is just child abuse that is.

2005-08-17 [skizheart]: hmmms....although i do believe that you should be allowed with who ever you want...the whole sex thing ruins it for me...again lol

2005-08-17 [skizheart]: a young kid could have plenty of knowledge and stuff about sex and whatever...but some of them havn't even fully developed

2005-08-17 [Dil*]: actually, it is physically damaging to a boy to have anal sex before their fully grown.

2005-08-18 [Fizban]: ever notice thats its not 30 year old women that wanna have sex with 9year old girls...?? that is disheartening for me...

2005-08-18 [skizheart]: yea...what the heck...always old guys and lil boyz and gurls...old women...lil dudes...but no damn old woman...and lil gurls...hmmms....this could turn into a gay/lesbian talk again...well...i'm trying to like find some reason to approve of older men having sex with little boys....but it's hard...but it's seriously dangerous...:( ...so i mean..it's really kind of mean...and bad...and disturbing...and i wanna cry now

2005-08-18 [skizheart]: can you really explain what this whole thing is...N.A.M.B.L.A......like is it an old guy liking/loving a kid...? or just wanting sex..i'm sooo confused...lol anyways...if the old guy is in love...then he should wait...you know...til the poor kid's fully grown lol

2005-08-18 [Gypsi]: For anyone who is confused, here is the N.A.M.B.L.A. home page: http://216.220.97.17/

2005-08-18 [Fizban]: UMM..icky i think i am going to avoid that...but yeah...there is a difference...i mean,...its not love its lust love for an 8 year old can only be by someone older in such a way...i am sorry its just freaky disgustiong lust...

2005-08-18 [Roc]: Since part of this debate revolves around statutory sex, I'd like to move to that (away from NAMBLA, specifically). Should minors be legally allowed to engage in sex?

2005-08-18 [Fizban]: no...the whole point in there name...minors...ie, there too young...some may understand, but most dont, shouldnt and really arent expected too...i dont want my child to know where baby's come from before he's 8 let alone be having sex as a whole...but then again thats not really what you meant when you said minors...well either age no...i just dont think as a whole they are or should be ready, so its fine that we continue with the established rules...look at how many kids are already losing there virginity at 13...14...15, if we then change around and make it seem not that bad what do ya think will happen...

2005-08-18 [skizheart]: sheesh...everything always leads to sex...lol what the heck...the government talk at least didnt' involve it..i'm by now.;..i hope everyone knows my feelings about sex...but the thing with minors is confusing...i believe that ...like if two ppl are minors..and like at the same age...then it's better than someone that's like 18 or above...with someone who's a minor...i feel that the younger person...still has sooooo many things they havn't been thru...feelings they've never felt...blah blah blah...so if two minors are together...at least they are going thru it at the same time and understand each other...the older person with a younger person thing...is just annoying...because the older .....

2005-08-18 [skizheart]: person should know that the younger one still has a lot to go thru... even if one is 17 and the other's 18...there can still be a huge difference...i don't like when ppl date out of their ages ...it's annoying...there's could be soo many things skipped or somthing...when the younger person is trying to live like the older person...but then again...what if they're in love....love is soo crazy!!! it's like got no limit..and it don't care about age...so whatever..i'm a li torn on the subject :/

2005-08-18 [Dil*]: nobody is supporting the other side, not much of a debate.

2005-08-18 [arafel]: the topic should be more arguable. no one seems to approve of man/boy love

2005-08-18 [Gypsi]: True... But I think freedom of speech comes into this. They have every right to talk about what they want to do, as long as they don't do it. (doesn't make it right... But they still have that freedom)

2005-08-18 [Dil*]: yep, and we have a freedom too. To express our disgust over their intentions.

2005-08-18 [arafel]: I don't think anyone disapproves of their discussing it. Although I don't know how people feel towards the group in general

2005-08-18 [Roc]: Okay, as most people are against NAMBLA...what do you think should happen?

2005-08-19 [skizheart]: hmmms...well you can't stop anyone from just talking about it...but it's against the law to act upon it...jsut like anything

2005-08-19 [Fizban]: and whenever there words effect others in a negative fashion...

2005-08-22 [Dil*]:

2005-08-22 [Fizban]: the coffecup looks really wierd...but the rest is good^_^ lols...

2005-08-22 [arafel]: i like it.....it makes me feel like im doing something more important than just discussing issues lol

2005-08-22 [Dil*]: hehe, thanks.

2005-08-22 [Fizban]: lols everyone likes to feel important...oy

2005-08-22 [Roc]: I think I'll take it. Thank you.

2005-08-22 [Fizban]: *claps to the new banner maker*

2005-08-22 [Dil*]: no problem.

2005-08-23 [arafel]: ***throws confetti.....or is it sprinkles?***

2005-08-23 [Roc]: lol...It looks a bit better.

2005-08-23 [arafel]: i think we should get a more debatable topic....something we can really argue about

2005-08-23 [Fizban]: something thats...um, controversial...namlba doenst fit that topic very well...

2005-08-23 [arafel]: yea....have they done stem cell research or stuff like that yet?

2005-08-23 [Fizban]: yes...i believe so...

2005-08-23 [arafel]: well this topic is scheduled to go on for about another 7 days, so who knows

2005-08-23 [Fizban]: lols...oy vey

2005-08-23 [Roc]: Or, if you would prefer, we could just BS until the date...or we could pick a temp-topic for the next two weeks.

2005-08-23 [arafel]: bs is wonderful stuff

2005-08-23 [Roc]: At this point, I leave it to all of you.

2005-08-23 [Fizban]: hmms...well,...oy

2005-08-24 [skizheart]: wellls.....hmmmmmmmmssssssssss .....how about .............hmmmmm..........um.....well....whether or not there should be such a whole thing about whether or not people should learn english when they come to our country or not.....?

2005-08-24 [skizheart]: i think it's annoying how people are trying to make it so foreigners that are going to live here...don't have to learn english at all!

2005-08-24 [Roc]: Are you going to learn Japanese if you plan on going to Japan? Arabic if you plan on going to the Middle East? Russian?

2005-08-24 [Fizban]: HELL YEAH!! if i plan on living in another countrie for an extended period of time, i damn well better learn there language...if i cant stand to be inconvienced by the language barrior in this country, what right would i have to expect things of other people that i dont of myself??

2005-08-25 [Dil*]: It takes time for people to learn a language, it's not easy, so why criticise? And they're immigrants, not foreigners...I find foreigners to be a cold/deregatory term.

2005-08-25 [Gypsi]: As do I.

2005-08-25 [Roc]: Immigrants, okay...but what if they are foreigners, on vacation? The terms 'immigrant' or 'alien' do not apply.

2005-08-25 [Dil*]: alien is also quite deregatroy.

2005-08-25 [Roc]: But what if someone isn't an immigrant? How is one to refer to that specific classification?

2005-08-25 [skizheart]: i said....foreigners that are going to LIVE here ... not vacation here.....that's just stupid...i would most certainly learn the damn language if i were going to Japan and anywhere else...it would be ESSENTIAL i think ....how would i truly Live if i couldn't get food...or ask somebody anything...OR GET A JOB.......which is one reason i believe.... foreigners should learn english.....if living here...because they have to get jobs....and that means...i want to be able to buy something or be a consumer...and how the heck am i supposed to get a sandwich or a pair of sandals @ walmart or somehting...if i have service...that doesn't understand what i want...it's annoying...and very inconviniecing.

2005-08-25 [Roc]: Sorry, but most Americans do not share your sentiments.

2005-08-25 [arafel]: well i dont think it really comes up anymore. Most countries are now learning English and teaching it in schools so its not as essential and limiting as it used to be. You can go practically anywhere and find someone who will understand you.

2005-08-25 [Dil*]: it doesn't come up, I live in one of the most multi-cultural cities in the world, Vancouver and I don't have such problems.

2005-08-25 [Roc]: Which problems?

2005-08-25 [Fizban]: umm..are you forgetting?? MEXICO!!....i live in newyork and i still encounter mexicans to whome i want to scream YO QUIRO UN TACO Y LOS NACHOS but dont and simply stand there saying it over again in english intill i give up and just get the wrong order...if i live in newyork there must be tons more elsewhere to wich there are more...so i do not think that it shouldnt be necessary, secondly if most countries arent going to have a problem with english, then there shouldnt be a problem with keeping the rule law whatever in place...

2005-08-26 [Dil*]: And how exactly are you going to enforce the rule?

2005-08-26 [Fizban]: not saying anything about a rule or a law, nor would i know anyway of doing so...

2005-08-26 [arafel]: yea, i think i agree a little. People have been telling me that in a few years Spanish will have to be known. And I don't like that sometimes I'm asked if I speak Spanish at job interviews. I want to yell "No, I don't, but if I did I would work in Argentina". But that's just me, and I get frustrated with that

2005-08-26 [Fizban]: hmms...spanish?? ithought it was all languages in general...but spanish yeah its sorda taking over...>_<

2005-08-26 [arafel]: Spanish is the main one....i don't ever really see my French education becoming neccessary

2005-08-26 [Roc]: The most widely spoken languages: 1. Chinese, Mandarin, 2. English, 3. Spanish, 4. Arabic, 5. Bengali, 6. Hindi, 7. Russian, 8. Portuguese, 9. Japanese, 10. German.

2005-08-26 [Fizban]: when you say widely you mean most of the world. yes thats looks correct...chinese obvoiusly becuase china has a huge population...but if i remember the words of my spanish teacher correctly, the countries and areas that speak spanish may have less people, but there are more countries that speak it than any others. Thanks for the info thow Roq

2005-08-26 [arafel]: i need to go learn some mandarin and spanish now

2005-08-26 [Fizban]: i can help you with spanis...mandarin...so difficult. Yucky...to hard, why i wouldnt ever live there. But if your going to learn mandarin you might as well learn japenese too there similar, or atleast more similar than any of the european languages, and hey then you can go to china and japan!!^_^ lols...

2005-08-26 [Roc]: Yep, your deductions are correct, [Fizban], about Mandarin Chinese being number 1...but Chinese and Japanese aren't very similar anymore.

2005-08-26 [Fizban]: i know, i am simply saying that taking from european-they all formed from latin-japanese and chinese both sprang from the same origins. They both use caligraphy and marking for there characters, and they are similar in that they dont have an alphabet but a system of markings each with there own meanign and several meaning more than one thing. They are more similar than any european languages are to them.

2005-08-26 [arafel]: i would love to learn both..but i dont know how i would manage to do that

2005-08-26 [Roc]: My buddy, [Axeman08], knows like...3 or 4 languages fluently or something...plus a couple of semesters in French...

2005-08-26 [Fizban]: taken all in college?

2005-08-26 [Roc]: He's originally from India, so he had to know 2 or 3 dialects there. Then he moved to America; thus he learned English over the last 9 years.

2005-08-26 [Fizban]: that sounds really cool,...

2005-08-27 [arafel]: yea my roommate diana knows like 3 dialects of chinese

2005-08-27 [Fizban]: soo cool!

2005-08-27 [arafel]: well they all have to know atleast 2. Mandarin and whatever they speak normally

2005-08-28 [Dil*]: not neccessarily, I only speak cantonese..don't know any Mandarin.

2005-08-28 [arafel]: oh......*whiney sigh* did you have to go and prove me wrong again?! lol ^^

2005-08-29 [Axeman08]: Roq wrong. Me no speakey America talk. He be bit**.

2005-08-29 [skizheart]: well anywho ...um yea ...i'm just confused are we still talking about the whole language thing here...?

2005-08-29 [skizheart]: or shold we try another topic?

2005-08-29 [Roc]: We change on Tuesday.

2005-08-29 [Fizban]: tuesday yucky...thats the day i go back to school...

2005-08-29 [Roc]: I go back the following Tuesday.

2005-08-29 [arafel]: im back now!!!! HUZZAH!

2005-08-29 [Axeman08]: I go back tomorrow as well.

2005-08-29 [arafel]: when do everyone's classes start though?

2005-08-29 [Roc]: That Tuesday. I actually go back on Sunday.

2005-08-29 [arafel]: oh ok....so in a few days

2005-08-30 [Gypsi]: I started last Monday.

2005-08-30 [Axeman08]: My classes do start tomorrow, and due to late registration/moving/other problems, I haven't even gotten my books yet.

2005-08-30 [Fizban]: no i meant next tuesday lols...like roq

2005-08-30 [Roc]: Any last suggestions for the next topic of debate?

2005-08-30 [Dil*]: nihilism!

2005-08-30 [Fizban]: do you mean when you think you dont exist?? because that problem isnt debatable lols...or do you mean Rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous theories of morality or religious belief. ??

2005-08-30 [Roc]: Like I said, [Dil*], I'm gonna save that for after this next one (it'll give people time to briefly research it). ;D

2005-08-30 [Axeman08]: How about evolution being taught in public schools? I think that would make an interesting topic, whenever you want to fit it in.

2005-08-30 [skizheart]: i don't like that

2005-08-30 [skizheart]: it's annoyin...wait a minute...are we debating right now...or just giving um suggestions?

2005-08-30 [Fizban]: looks like suggestions...umm...well i mean the reason we should teach it versus religouns is because its not any religous ideal its a theory....the way religouns teach it is that there is no other way this is how its happened and evoulution is just an idea. As long as people grasp that and understand they only need to know the most prevalent idea on how we came to be.

2005-08-30 [Roc]: I guess if someone's got a more international based idea...I hope.

2005-08-30 [Axeman08]: Well, it'd be kind of unfair to have a bunch of Americans debate international issues (even though America does such things on a regular basis). Plus, I personally find most of them annoying to debate. However, if someone can come up with a good one, I'm open to it.

2005-08-30 [Fizban]: international hmms...we shoudl ask someone from a different country why they dont like ours and debate upon that if its any good that is...

2005-08-30 [Dil*]: haha..why people don't like America? That's a good topic :D

2005-08-30 [Fizban]: lols...well heres for hoping...anyone know anyone from another country on here and wants to go ask them if they do and why they dont if they do not like america?? lols

2005-08-30 [Roc]: Actually, [Dil*], I do like that. What is the world's perception of America and why.

2005-08-30 [Fizban]: yeah great idea...

2005-08-30 [Roc]: Anyone else like that?

2005-08-30 [Dil*]: well, it's not so much that I dislike americans, that I just dislike their govt greatly.

2005-08-30 [Axeman08]: Well, technically, I suppose I'm a foreigner, so I can probably contribute something to this.

2005-08-30 [Fizban]: lols i dont need to be a foreigner to dislike our govt...but what about our govt dont you like?

2005-08-30 [Dil*]: well,...wait till' the topic starts up hehe.

2005-08-31 [Roc]: And that shall happen midnight, CT.

2005-08-31 [Axeman08]: I hate following this whole ET thing now. Stupid railroads....

2005-08-31 [Roc]: ?

2005-08-31 [Axeman08]: Eastern Time Zone = ET

2005-08-31 [Roc]: I thought you meant Elftown.

2005-08-31 [Roc]: End...whatever we were disussing, lol

2005-08-31 [Roc]: .............................................................................................................

2005-08-31 [Roc]: Begin Perception of America debate

2005-08-31 [Fizban]: i am always under the impression that others see us as sort of bullies...

2005-08-31 [Roc]: And why?

2005-08-31 [Fizban]: because we use our power excessively and with little regard interms of other countries to get whatever we want,...we seem to over step out authority all the time...

2005-08-31 [Dil*]: of course...the US only does stuff in self benefit, any other 'reasons' are false.

2005-08-31 [Fizban]: right...but then thats self interest, thats average its what any other country with that much power would do...things to help itself, irrelevent of weather or not it screws anyonoe else over...

2005-08-31 [Dil*]: they've overthrown democratically elected govts to suite their own corporate needs countless times.

2005-08-31 [Roc]: [Stepping aside as moderator]: I would certainly agree. America, in the past recent years, has become, not a beacon of hope to the world, but a beacon of selfishness and gluttony. America has tossed aside whatever once made us great and admired for the profit of a few.

2005-09-01 [Axeman08]: Well, there was never anything that made us great. Perhaps we won over a few people when we threw the British Empire out, but up till WWII, we weren't really the superpower that could command attention. Once we rose to superpower status, of course, we started abusing that position. The only people who think America is infallible are ignorant American citizens. Granted, I like this country and many of the principles it stands for (or should stand for), but it is FAR from perfect.

2005-09-01 [Dil*]: blah, the US made profit out of WW2 while everyone suffered. I find it insulting that they say they saved everyone's asses in WW2. hardly, the russians did most of the work (and dying from the looks of things). They made the biggest sacrifices.

2005-09-01 [Fizban]: they made the biggest contribution yes...but they didnt do anything to turn the tides...and yeah, we did profit, but i mean...america is just so stupid...gorsh...

2005-09-01 [Dil*]: no way! without the 2nd front in Russia, we'd all be done in.

2005-09-01 [Dil*]: And the front in russia was the largest!

2005-09-01 [Fizban]: yes i know, and i know without russia britian would have been destroyed and everything would have failed...but if hitler didnt fall for it it wouldnt have been so bad..they shoudl have just finished off britain then went to russia, and yeah i know russia was the largest, they kill with numbers...but there weapons,....oy if there weapons were better they would have been immensly effective...they could have been better, but well i suppose everything turned out all right..they definetly sacrificed more than any other coutnrie....and well they were as important...i suppose perhaps our chance to help wouldnt have been available without russia...so hmms...they were integral...

2005-09-01 [Fizban]: good they were most important

2005-09-01 [Roc]: Agreed. Russia did, in fact, suffer the most, and America did, in fact, suffer the least. However, Hitler probably would have won had America not come the aid of Allied Forces. Russia had 1 weapon for 5 soldiers.

2005-09-01 [Dil*]: yes, but I hate when they (americans) said they saved our asses, we all (combined effort) saved our asses. With Russia putting in the most effort (if you go gauging it like a bastard).

2005-09-01 [Roc]: No one denies the USSR's sacrfice, but the Allies would have 'lost' the war had America not stepped in, as late as they did.

2005-09-01 [Dil*]: we would have 'lost' the war if USSR or Britain wasn't in it.

2005-09-01 [Roc]: But if the USSR or Britain weren't in it, there would have been no WWII.

2005-09-01 [Dil*]: well, hitler would have just taken europe over completely.

2005-09-01 [Roc]: But that has nothing to do with whether or not America was the deciding factor in the War.

2005-09-01 [Fizban]: it wasnt america's war, it wasnt our specific responsibility...if conditions were different they could have won...but as it was, can you honestly deny that without american aid they wouldn't have won?? We aren't saying we won the war for them, but the way your talking it up it's like you're saying they didnt need us and america deserves no credit for the deaths of the men who participated in that war thinking they were helping...tell the war vetrens that there contributions were of little importance...simply saying that this is how your coming off twords me,...am i coming off as an arrogant american??

2005-09-01 [Roc]: Actually, she's from Canada.

2005-09-01 [Fizban]: i saw that...and was confused by it...because the way it was sounding was like she was from there lols...

2005-09-01 [Dil*]: no no! you've lost my meanings entirely, I only get annoyed when people (namely from the US) say that they saved everyone's asses (like they're the great heros of the world or something) *rolles eyes*, hell, we do have a right to bitch about how long they took to get in >.> (last bit of my sentence slightly unrelated). And then everyone laughs at Canada's 'lack of an army', but in WW2, we had 600,000 men in the army (which was a huge portion of our small population). And on D-day, we got a whole beachhead to ourselves, Americans had 2, Commonwealth had 2. But still, small population :p (wow, my Canada contribution rant...comes out!)

2005-09-01 [Fizban]: lols..thank you, i didnt know there were that many canadians involved, yay for canada^_^,...and hey, be glad its better to have no enemies and a small army, you dont have to waste money on an army, and you dont have to waste money on homeland defense...oy vey...we just keep spending all the european nations money...and others...its sooo horrible..

2005-09-01 [Roc]: Certainly. Well, in defense of our isolationist policies, FDR knew Hitler was a man to not be trusted. However, since WWI and the Great Depression, the masses were completely opposed to getting involved in foreign affairs. With that, FDR was forced to wait until America was directly attacked to gain any support to go after the Nazi regime.

2005-09-01 [Fizban]: persicly why so many reminise(horrible sp lols...) as to woodrow wilsin and his fourteen points...wondering if that woudl have made it any different...wondering what would happen if perhaps he was better listened too...his words headed instead of ignored...

2005-09-01 [Axeman08]: Just so you know, Dilandau, I did not mean to imply that America saved anyone's asses in WWII. I simply meant that it emerged as a superpower only after WWII. And yes, Russia did suffer the most as far as human life is concerned (which, I suppose it all that's concered). Canada's effort was quite significant, too. Canadian troops were responsible for taking one of the Normandy beaches on D-Day.

2005-09-01 [Fizban]: the most human life, and the most collateral damage...

2005-09-01 [Dil*]: yep.

2005-09-02 [Axeman08]: Fizban, it's funny that you mention Woodrow Wilson being ignored. History has its own sense of irony. Ho Chi Minh actually came up to Wilson during the Versailles summit and told him about the situation in Vietnam. If Wilson had actually listened to him instead of brushing him off, the Vietnam conflict could also have been avoided.

2005-09-02 [Fizban]: vietnam?? gimme a sec..i need to check my info, wasnt woodrow wilson WW1?? his fourteen points for avoiding a second world war having been ignored...umm, vietnam was about 30 years later...they couldtn have known about communism and all this happeneing way back in 1918?? i am so confused do i have the wrong president?? Because i dont know how the president from WW1 had anything to do with vietnam..??

2005-09-02 [skizheart]: lols wows yeah now i'm confused lol

2005-09-02 [Axeman08]: A younger Ho Chi Minh came up to Woodrow Wilson and related to him the situation in Vietnam in 1919. There was a struggle in Vietnam even then involving communism. I believe the French were involved in it. However, Wilson did not listen to him. He simply ignored him. The situation at that time had not escalated beyond control. If the U.S. had gotten involved in 1919, we would not have been pushed to a stalemate conflict later on in the 60s. Do you get what I'm saying?

2005-09-03 [skizheart]: well i don't believe in foriegn affairs ...i think they're stupid i don't think we should ever have them....we can trade but that's it ...there was no need for us to put our damn noses into vietnam....so what if communism is out there.....everyone has thier own problems and stuff...and everyone can deal with them...we never have to go and "save people"